A mistake was a huge cost. I was an asshole, but I was better than my peers at getting shit done -- I was a PM in DevDiv at the time. Exceptional Director, hardworking, reliable, efficient, a team player, flexible to work 24 hours shift rota, prioritise my workload at all time, managing customers and team, managing safely, ability to carry out Risk Assessments and how to manage such Risks to minimal, excellent report written skills, excellent communicate skills both verbal and written forms including presentation using . The Job titles for this position are: Software Development Engineer SDE Asshole managers aren't unknown at Apple [] The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate cultureThanks for a nice belly laugh to re-energize my morning. If you send a brownbag invitation to your VP level group then you know your VP is getting it. Sometimes the answer is, "well, we'll see" and other times the answer is, "if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it". IBM pulled themselves out of their decline by focusing on their customers. Joined MCS at level 60 and was immediately told that L61 would be years away. The general consensus is why get rid of someone who is happy doing their job and can do it better than anyone else. When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. Mine is inside sales Azure. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. That is why to get to L65 a VP level person must know your work and be able to recall your name without help. I just want to grow, and I am aware that it does not translate to a promotion always. I saw several far more technically skilled people in the group who deserved this that were passed over. L65 here, worked up from L59 (actually, 10 in the old system).The key is always to keep your eye on the goal. This helps us sort answers on the page. This can play a bigger role even than how many times you broke the build, caused a bug, etc. These two lines really serve to summarize the incoherent blithering that was jcr's post.Whoa, really? How accurate is this most likely Total Pay range (base + additional) of $396K-$652K/yr? What to do?The remaining is either a) absorb into other org (say A)b) if A doesn't need testers, then VP will instruct them to find another position in 6 weeks. Incompetent People Really Have No Clue: If youre one of the people complaing about how youre not getting promoted because your mgr is incompetent and youre just as good as all those others who got promoted you could be right. "I wonder whyMicrosoft: Citi Cuts Ests, Target On PC Slowdown. 3. Within the comments, I hope to elicit advice that follows up on what I start here, and maybe even contradicts it. Mini: Great topic! Aren't those the things you are best at? Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. and hey if it backfires (eg the mgr flips), I can always take the offer at hand and leave MS.thoughts? If you're saying "Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion" then all I have to say is "Duuuude, your boss is the way to your promotion." I would lay some level of accountability with management as well, though. Director can be applied to L65 or L66. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. I thought changing groups would help me get promoted faster however all it did was make me resart from ground zero with each group. Good managers: In general, good managers realize that they need to sell their team's accomplishments. Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. Learning Curves and Disillusioned Learners: psychologists have known for years that skill acquisition tends to follow a typical learning curve. ALWAYS ask for a promotion. Only 1 of the 4 [sic]s were legitimate. What's worse is the noise this creates. During that time I had two good to great managers. Its a bit like the famous phrase about the definition of obscenity. The average salary for a Senior Director is $170,707 per year in United States, which is 65% lower than the average Microsoft salary of $500,742 per year for this job. >Real HR managers from Microsoft would have just three [sic]s in a post of that length.I hope HR gets cut. Let's connect and I will happily share more about my background and accomplishment and how I can contribute to the success of your organization. And I'm going to tell you right now, I'm 99.9% sure what needs to change is you. We definitely need a new thread, things are starting to happen indeed.Our 120+ person org has just been broken up due to lack of budget. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all>I am a partner. Embrace whatever people are saying are your flaws. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. Eventually, their team will remove itself from his control through internal transfers to teams with better managers, and the asshole ends up getting canned in a re-org if he doesn't see the writing on the wall and use his Apple resume entry to jump to some other company.The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate culture, and that you are part of the problem.-jcr, Think of the guy in the other companyI don't like where this is goingThat is the guy to beat.No, No, NO!Think of the customer, not the competition! It would be the pinnacle of dumbness. I drove my 59-62 agenda with an iron fist and it didn't matter so much that I didn't play well with others or work to help other teams who were struggling.I became a manager during that time and had a year of major hiccups while trying to break through to 63 -- all of a sudden the fact that I was a unilateral force was working *against* me and not for me. An accomplished and proven Director / Tech & Business Principal / Programme Manager / Business Partner / Service Delivery Manager with a wide-ranging skillset, experienced in leading teams to success. So I guess I know what it takes go get to level 63. This is usually how teams start to rot from the inside. Sort of like grading on a curve in school. ;) I have one thing to add that might help some. Also, its important to keep in mind that it is impossible to provide a perfect definition of any level. For example, in order to be promoted to level 62, you, as a level 61, must already perform at a level 62 level for a long time. Dina Dublon 1,2 Former Chief Financial Officer, JPMorgan Chase. This way I can be in a better position to show that I am a "absolutely!" Chris Capossela. Last August (different group), I received a dreaded "Limited II", in spite of my manager telling me that he didn't actually think I was in the "bottom 10" at Microsoft, but that the devil made him do it (so to speak) and that it was a "no-brainer" for him. L66 would be Principal or Sr Director. Few others are long time softies who have been doing average to good job for very long time (3-7 years) without getting any promos. It's a knife fight to 63. A Principal-level employee at Microsoft is someone who drives strategic efforts in their area of expertise. Advice from anyone at Microsoft for 10+ years is great to hear, but hard to follow. I spend a long time a 61 about 4.5 years mostly because I changed groups alot. How do levels compare? "We have a stable and relatively easy job, and as long as we achieve, we will not get fired." It works like this: Senior (L64,63) - works on tactical efforts, writes code or works on projects autonomously, collaborates with others Don't just take a L63+ role because of the level. Successful people looooove to expound upon the secret to their success. The hardest work item on his place was an expression parser that the team's architect wrote for him. Don't be afraid to ask your manager some very direct questions.Don't force the issue. I say this because I have seen really smart people shunned because of 'house-on-fire' attitudes even when they were dead right. I'm a level 66 dev (architect). Microsoft's senior positions start at level 63, according to the crowdsourced tech compensation website Levels.fyi. If it is, awesome -- go do it, drive it to completion. Thanks. Its performance is compromised by your pandering to the RIAA and MPAA. This is something that should happen on an ongoing basis.Unfortunately, it doesnt happen, and that is what frustrates a lot of people.Saying that you dont know what exactly an L63 is, but will know one when you see him is a big cop-out. Our entire unit was let go but we were moved to different groups in the org. Sign up on LinkedIn and join the Microsoft Employees or ex-MSFT employees groups and then you'll see them posted. Do it nicely. Leadership, for instance. Microsoft Corp. engages in the development and support of software, services, devices, and solutions. If you can learn to do this you become incredibly valuable.5. Things get thrown your way and you knock each and everyone of the challenges out of the park. No one else was as good. No manager can bail you out of "bad brand jail" past L625. L8=Partner/GM. In the beginning, I volunteered for these tough areas that no one else wanted and over time, my brand became the fix it guy. So yes, Mini's list should get you to 63 anywhere. Thanx for it. You are employed by Microsoft's shareholders. Ultimately, I decided to leave the company. I guess they are fallible humans too. Remember the "how".All the things Mini mentions do translate further up in levels. I made sure I was the fastest, most efficient, and best bug fixer. then do you know what more you need to do? Grammar nitpicking is fine when it's accurate. Say B.In a perfect case, B will have 10 devs to transfer to A but when that happen B will be left with 5 testers and 2 PMs. So no time like the present to practice where you can. In my group that's the really tough one. I haven't seen one single person getting hired below L63 in my group during last year. Its a natural consequence of the learning curve. Go and restart in another org and dig through their historical biz and people stability during your informationals. Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Maybe because you are so overleveled (maybe not you personally, but MSN as whole), your bosses doesn't want rest of the company to make ruckus about that injustice (I have seen people moving from SDE II in Windows to MSN and getting promotion-on-transfer to SENIOR SDE, and they were not even hard-core devs). Learn everything I can about the technology (I'm a PM and don't have a CS background so I work extra hard at this and ask lots of questions.)2. Entry level (4,718) Associate (1,976) Mid-Senior level (40,085) Get yourself a formal or informal mentor who is already doing what you want to be doing. Facebook, Go to company page I came in at 58 (9) and having been through a) I wish I had gone through b). One could easily sack 4000 heads at HQ and R&D nor revenue would take a hit. Being irreplaceble is bad because you spend more times on coding/fixing bugs and there is less time to work on your visibility. If they see flaws you have flaws. I'd like to see a transition plan from you in 2 days". Some were also not very sexy/fun problem but they were all critical to ship. That manager was (in my and many others' opinions) an incompetent, non-technical "manager" who was incapable of recognizing people's talent and contributions. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. L6 =64-65. Attack problems within your own areas of influence proactively and generate that same good vibe among peers. Finally, take heart and dont become too discouraged if this is taking a little longer than it seems like it should. I also agree with the requests to have a discussion related to 65+.Anyway, I have seen a very healthy discussion going on here, and most of the thoughts I wanted to share have been mentioned. There's a reason why they had the kind of brand loyalty that Microsoft can only dream of.Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. I breezed to L63 and shortly after to L64 within a year. If you get caught in a review and someone hits a fastball by you and you stumble, the people above you suddenly have fears that you might stumble when they and you are in front of the person who controls their careers. I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. You're in competition with everyone else in your org in your CSP. I want to share some of my thoughts about succeeding at Microsoft and reaching Level 63, the Senior contributor level at Microsoft. This past year I had what I thought was an outstanding year, was given a 20%, but not promoted to L63. Strong operations professional with a Master's Degree focused in Project Management from Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto . It turns out that typically your immediate manager has little control, it's all decided at higher levels. One of my reports and I had that conversation not that long ago, and I explained to him that at 62, he can take on any task I'm asking him to do. The scope and situations have become more and more challenging over time. Find out if you have a positive trajectory in the stack ranking. I might be still employed by Microsoft if I knew he wasnt doing it willingly.One thing I would do different if I could do it again is to not advance levels any faster than I have to. And on one total-eclipse-rare occasion, I've been able to be answer the follow-up question: will they reach L65 and say with confidence: Absolutely. take the time to find a mentor that is a great fit for you and the issue you're working on. But if your manager is undervaluing your work, and *that* is the factor that is making you unhappy, you can fix that. Then perhaps you're stuck at L62. It takes a little time to get on your skip-level manager's radar. I was probably at risk of topping out at level 62 or 63 at one point but worked hard to change my brand and good things happened as a result. What worked for me was to go to my manager and say: "I would like to stay here, at Microsoft, working for you. Hi,Now that the Annual review is approaching, I wanted to seek tips on justification putforth to the manager to move from L60-L61. also work is good only when it leads to results that typically means team's success. Because, except on the rare occasion, Microsoft and your team isn't going to change.But, Mini, isn't your 'raison d'etre' just the opposite? Averages based on self-reported salaries. When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. similar to maybe how EY says senior manager is Director (pwc, kpmg) equivalent. Sometimes i laugh when i read the armchair CEO's on this thread - there is a lot of criticism of Steve, but 99% of our brains would absolutely pop if we had to confront the complexity of decisions he makes in one day. Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. Today's top 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States. I sat there at L64 for 5+ years. for people, who might claim that they do all this and still cant progress.. dude, either you are in wrong group or you have not introspected / taken feedback well or you are missing the whole thing by a mile. I dont know why this is the case. You will not know the difference.Steve Steve Steve given the state of the company, are you sure you don't have anything else more urgent to do? When you see a bozo who is L65 it is highly likely that he had joined MS recently at L64-L65 directly.Here's biggest difference in expectations between levels: The L62 guys are supposed to be able to lead their feature and perhaps influence couple of related features by spreading their best practices. The Senior Director provides leadership, establishes operational objectives, policies, procedures and works plans and oversee the program to ensure maximum profitability through efficient service delivery, effective client management, and strategic allocation of resources. You will not know the difference. Your Team: you have to be able to understand why the L63s and L64s are where they are. Maybe everybody's aware of being "in lockdown" and keeping their heads down? This is a discussion to foster debate and by no means an enactment of policy-violation. for 63 promo within a more clear timeline. In particular I am at 64 for quite some time. Thanks to Mini for the great information. There were times when I was promoted more slowly than I probably could have been, but I am very happy with where I am now, and I am still growing. That is the guy to beat. The last thing I would ever think about is what my boss thinks of me; I just don't care. I came in at L61 2+ years ago. My best guess is that you think it should be await. Many senior people, even VPs read this blog. They don't care who gets the credit, and they fight for good reviews for their people. Ive seen many people who didnt quite fit at MS go off and be very successful at other companies, starting their own biz, changing careers, by finding a better fit for themselves. If you find yourself in this spot - get a good external mentor to help you manage through it if you don't feel you can have this conversation with your manager.4. Then do it.Yeah yeah, that's an oversimplification. >> You forgot "never ask for a promotion".That's the absolute worst advice one can give to a Microsoft employee, IMO. This is so that they can convert those positions to other discipline.i've seen this happening to at least 2 teams so far. Some of them don't have a very good idea of what a Level 65 does since they have not had much experience with those promotions. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? My management tells me that this is normal and 2 years is "aggressive", but this is getting frustrating for me. Copyright 2008-2023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc. SoI'll repeat it again. Had I only known this info when I started at Microsoft. And a knife-fight for L65 (some other day). If I was looking at reducing costs this isn't exactly where I'd set my sights first but again this is Microsoft we're talking about. You can forge a great partnership and accomplish a lot. Executing on what you have now at a high rate/quality level.2. It's probably true that there's more to the story and that they actually have important skills that matter. If youve capped out at Level 62 then MS is probably not a great fit for you. I've been at the same level for 3.5 years (since I joined MSFT), and while I spent three of those in a group where almost noone at all got promoted (a group which has since essentially dissolved), I'm concerned that my level stagnation reflects poorly on me, even though I've been the major contributor on products that have earned 10x my total compensation package for MSFT. The good thing in most teams here is that if you persist, you will get there. Oh, please. You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. He identified the common denominators in becoming an expert in practically any field. Microsoft Director level role - Level 66 - what should I expect from COMP sideYOE-15Current TC- 235k, Go to company page Technical excellence alone will not generate success.Authority. I changed 3 groups at Microsoft. What worked well and what really horked things up for you? You will never get your promotion on a silver platter. Senior-level employees have the most decision-making power at a company and are meant to provide leadership and guidance to employees with less seniority. Be very careful, because some people may tell you about this or that great thing they did, and only mention that they are (or were) married to this General Manager, or that they have been in the team since it was only 2 people, and the other person today is a VP. If he thought you were trouble already, though, telling him you are thinking about leaving is like asking for a ticket out of there.7. I am a [sic] HR manager. Ask yourself: what fraction of your job do you actually enjoy? This is all well and good, but in 9years I've never worked in a group with a Senior IC (Windows, IE, .NET), though some architects. Shock and awe awaits [sic].Four errors in grammar and punctuation in a post of just 14 words? I definitely want to read more soon.Sincerely yoursSteave Markson. agree with positive suggestions here. My likely response would be "congratulations! Working with high EQ allows you to collaborate better. So I cultivate relationships with my manager's peers; their support helps tremendously. And having a friend gain less than 3000/yr with a promo to Pricincipal cemented that. For many in our sub, MCS seems to be the place of incompetent managers and just a pitstop to somewhere else. Its usually comes down to do it and be unhappy or leave. If your boss isn't banging his fist on the table for you, it won't happen. Browse all Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salaries Frequently asked questions I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. Microsoft That's not going to change in six months (which I learned). How? I got involved in features up front, by spending time getting to know the PM team. The problem is you can't tell if you've done something to piss him off or if he's doing it because he has to. When I finally figured out how to play well with others and was able to show some major cross-group gains in addition to my own leet prod dev skills, that's when I became a 63.63 to 64 was a bit of a slog -- I'd say more like a full-frontal assault on lazy management, actually :). What advice do you have to pass on? The job is the same, just the levelling differs. This makes it very easy to feel underleveled, because the 6 people that started 3 weeks before you might take up the 2 promotion spots available per year for 3 years (numbers all made up).You also, at least in my experience, aren't really given feedback on when you're performing at a level that *could* be promoted. Yet, I know that a friend just got one. Duuuude, your boss is the way to your promotion. When I gave notice, my PUM was in my office within an hour showing me stock levels at 65 and 66, willing to restructure my position pretty much to my liking. You go along with a good boss/employee relationship then all of a sudden, it's like you killed his first born. That is the guy to beat. Your own work is part of the goal. The important thing though is, can you hold things in a room full of other Senior team members. Vendors are also having it bad. So a sub role at L61 = corp L63 and vice versa.So from a sub perspective:L58 and below are relatively junior roles where you have zero influence outside of meeting your commitmentsL59 -> L60 is a tougher jump. Kathleen Hogan. Mgmt, MSFT levels: CEO > VP > Partner(Director) > Principal > Sr. Eng > Eng 2 > Eng 1. Senior Director Levels at Microsoft 63 (Senior Manager) 64 Principal EM (Principal Director of Engineering) 66 Senior Director (67) GM, Partner (SDE Group Manager) 69 VP (70) Corporate VP (80) Executive VP (81) View 7 More Levels United States No region found, search all locations Greater Seattle Area San Francisco Bay Area View All Data 4. If you want to advance and you are not a "favorite underling", your first and most important job is this: figure out how to become a "favorite underling". I only wish the internal MyMicrosoft blog had posts that were this valuable and insightful. Now a VP at a small cap (and growing, yes in this economy) company. They want you to succeed, they want the team to succeed. Is this a normal situation and should I not be worried? Jobs are leveled, not people - make sure the job you have includes the scope needed for the level you want. This is a large part of his job - getting his reports to excel and getting them (and by extension, himself) some recognition.All of the above assumes you don't suck, though. Please help. First, self criticism to identify weaknesses. You don't deliver products on your own -- you're usually building one system, one set of components that together make one successful (or unsuccessful) product.You can always, always find ways that make yourself, your manager, and your immediate team much more successful. By contrast high performers have a fairly accurate self assessment, but are slightly self critical of themselves as well as others. I knew it backwards and forwards, better than anyone else does now or ever will. Now the setup team for most products has more than 6 devs. Maybe." But my manager is communicating to me that it is very hard and I am likely to show patience for another year or two.I do not know how to confirm this without looking like whining. About 1/2 the team is staying, the other half is going to a number of different teams within the larger org. I think folks like that are the one-offs who slipped by and most likely (given the scrutiny I see more and more) certainly wouldn't slip by today. Also, go mine some of Dr. Brechner's Hard Code columns. I joined The Company 2 weeks ago, far from 63, but all you said it's very valuable for defining a career path. And your list of bullet points on qualities of a 63-er is pretty much the short list I have boiled it down to. Up to that point the "what" you accomplish can get you pretty far and you get some wiggly room on the how. Don't make promises to follow up on things and then let them drop. abbott diabetes care customer service; sasha obama playing drums; silverstone woodlands camping tips; dagannoth mother osrs; how do i check my reader digest subscription; martin moreno leaves fluffy; abc12 obituaries flint, michigan . Moved to a role where I could see headroom and also where I could set specific commits and accountabilities with the GM, which I then exceeded and moved to L63 in '04. So, for those of you who are in orgs where it's 'easy' to get to L63 or L64 - think about transferring out BEFORE you get too high a level and paint yourself into a corner. As per Microsoft's job posting, the specific position requires over 8 years of experience so it pays high as well. I am happy to be an L63, trying to get to L64 so I can relate.How I got here (I started as an industry hire 61 about 5 years ago):1. I haven't talked to anyone internally that has anything good to say about it. The L65 guys are expected to influence outcomes, strategy and best practices on their entire VP level groups. Rather nice site you've got here. No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect.
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